How to Understand Your Relationship Cycle

Transcript

Welcome to In the Messy Podcast, where we talk about relationships and communication and how we can be in relationship together. And our hope is to inspire you to see that there are other ways to do relationships so that you don’t need to fight, that you don’t need to get into these cycles of feeling all alone and all burnt out.

And so today we have a special guest. He is so near and dear to my heart. His name is Caleb TSE and he is a licensed psychotherapist. And yeah, just a little bit about him. He is born and raised in Kelowna, British Columbia. He became a campus minister, which supported and trained Christian student leaders on campus at the University of New Brunswick in Fredericton and in St. John. And he studied at Tindale University in Toronto as a psychotherapist. So he’s been all over Canada. So he focuses on how spirituality affects our mental wellbeing, men’s issues including relationships, communication, anger management, and addictions, and also trauma and PTSD.

Hi Caleb. So good to have you on this podcast and is there anything else that you wanna just say about yourself before we dive in to our topic? Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. For sure. And I’m really excited to have this conversation with you. So today we are just gonna talk about, our cycles and what goes on behind the scene and even before then we just wanna talk about how do you understand your cycle through a RE. I know in previous episodes we talked about what a RE stands for, A accessible, R responsive and E engaged. And if you haven’t already looked at the previous episodes, I highly recommend that you do that before you jump into this episode. So Caleb, what is the cycle? So cycles are, just regular patterns of behavior that come through, within our relationship dynamics. And so we call them, another way to talk about them are demon dialogues or autopilot. And I think autopilot is such a, good descriptor of what we’re describing here. You have certain triggers, you flip a switch and all of a sudden you’re no longer in control. And the relationship goes through the same patterns, the same, program behaviors as you fly through the program until the end of the fight or whatever the trigger was, for the autopilot to, until it’s completed. And then you have control again once everything calms down. Wow. I actually love that image of going on autopilot. it’s so true. Whenever I get into an argument with my spouse, I just fly off the handle I don’t even know what’s going on and then somehow it’s like the, switch turns off and I’m back to normal.

Yeah, absolutely and that’s actually really common and not just among spouses either. We have autopilots and triggers that can. To set us off, between people with our bosses, coworkers, day to day stuff, even when we’re, working and preparing for something that we, normally would be fine for. That’s why we call them, cycles. And then you also mentioned this idea of a demon dialogue. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah. So this demon dialogue really is more for, those within a couple’s relationship or within relationships in general. and this just, we call it demon dialogue because really the worst part ourselves are really coming out in these moments. We finished a fight and we looked back. It’s like, why did I say that? And why am I like this? And some like guilt and shame comes through, and the, inner demons are really taking control, of our conversation and our relationships. And so that’s why we call them game dialogues.

Got it. Got it. It’s hard to control ourselves when we have that trigger. Even if it’s my spouse didn’t do the dishes, or they didn’t take out the garbage, or they didn’t greet me at the door. Then it feels like there’s the, a little demon that is like bubbling up and saying things like, oh, if he really cared about you or if she really cared about you, then she would’ve done this, or he would’ve done that. Is it like that? Yeah. like at the end of the day, these demons and these triggers, are based on our insecurities. And so use the example of, the dishes, being greeted. or just like when I reach out for my partner and they’re a little bit distracted, or I’m trying to share something really important and they’re on their phone and they’re not responding in the thing that, in the way that I need them to, or I want them to in the moment. It really triggers us back to some of these, old wounds that we have. some of the old traumas that we may have. Not in the way of complex, like acute trauma and like PTSD as it normally understood, but like complex trauma of, this is how like I was hurt and this is how my relationships were unsafe before and I’m stuck in it again. Really at the heart of these cycles are these triggers, are these traumatic, experiences that, that we’re just not mindful of. And so really when we go through psychotherapy as we, do couples therapy in particular, it’s like, how do we help you be more mindful? These cycles that you’re in, and these trigger points so that we can cut short the program and cut short that dialogue and have them begin to have new dialogue and really begin to say the things that we want to say rather than things that we, naturally just lean towards.

Wow. And part of me feels oh, if I know what my autopilot is, shouldn’t my spouse or my partner just accept it? if they know that these are my trigger points, wouldn’t it be a loving thing to say, Hey, Janette, like this is what you need from me because you are insecure about this or because of your past trauma.

You, you need this from me. So, I’m wondering here if, on the flip side, there’s, insecurities in me. I had trauma growing up, or my parents weren’t A RE accessible, responsive or engaged. And I’m really struggling in this relationship to feel loved and safe and secure. Part of me going on autopilot means that, I need, you to pull me out of this cycle because I cannot do it myself. And at the same time, I feel like you are not helping me do it. My partner’s not helping me do it. What do I do about that?

So I think in the midst of that, you make a really good point, Janette, right? That in our moments of weakness, we deeply long for our partners to be able to help us to like as, especially if, as we’re feeling insecure, as we feel wounded, we just want to comforting hand, right? We desperately need that, and that’s the beauty of relationship and that’s the beauty of, our, our commitments to one another as partners. I think what’s important to remember though, Janette, is that as much as you’re in your cycle and you’re being triggered, your cycles actually trigger their cycles too. Their insecurities are being triggered as well. And so of course we would like, we would love it and it’s the, optimal thing would be for the partner to be, mindful enough and secure enough themselves and stable enough to recognize, oh, my partner’s hurting right now and I really need to just take a step back and hold space for them. So that they can recover and like, how do I meet that? And really, those are the new dialogues and the new conversations that we want to start. But most of the times we can’t get there because again, their, cycles are being triggered, their insecurities are being triggered. And so it’s really a whirlpool effect where both spouses are sucked in, deeper and deeper, and the cycles go faster and faster. And it’s harder and harder to get out as the pressure builds. And that’s really where a lot of couples start to fall apart.

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so hard. And what your painting is this cycle that keeps on going. It’s almost like a tornado. And it’s hard to stop when it gets started. And it’s I’m triggering you and you’re triggering me and we, we don’t have any control over our cycle. And because of what’s going on inside that insecurity, that hurt, that longing to have our partners be A RE for us, that is why the cycle keeps on perpetuating because we’re expecting the other person to be that safe and secure space for us. And so how do, yes, like we understand all of this. We understand that this is our cycle. It’s not easy. And so what do, we even do about this? Yeah, so I think number one is to acknowledge you’re in a cycle. Like I said, oftentimes this is, something could be called autopilot, right? And so sometimes you enter autopilot without realizing it. And it’s really hard to fix something if you don’t actually see and understand the problem, right? So if a tone of voice that your, partner uses or, you use with your partner triggers and sets them off, maybe they have a really bad habit of interrupting you, right? And it sets you into, frustration, into annoyance. A lot of these things can be different kinds of triggers that just happen all the time. And so being able to recognize that, oh yeah, actually every time I come into the room and I see your clothes on the ground, or I see a mess, or every time, you interrupt me, or, you use that tone of voice with me when I share something with you. I get really triggered and then we enter a new cycle all over again. Like you have to recognize that, cycles happen and what those cycles may be for you and your partner. Wow. So step one really is to, acknowledge that you’re in a cycle, that you yourself are a part of it as well.

That’s right. And at the same time, what if as you’re acknowledging that, we are getting into this cycle, we are both getting triggered and starting the autopilot. what if that triggers my partner? What do I do? I think at that point, really it’s how do we stop and slow down for a moment and to, really be present.

So again, ARE available, responsive, engaged, And how do I make sure that I’m not here to fix a problem more than I am here, to be present and be available, and responsive and engaged with my partner. You might not solve the problem right away, and you might not break the cycle right away, but ultimately holding space for them and being able to, understand and acknowledge their pain, really is the first step to, to allow this healing that we’re talking about today.

So you are asking me to slow it down to acknowledge, okay, we’re starting to get into the cycle and you’re telling me that I have to be available, responsive and engaged with my partner even though they’re getting triggered. That’s so hard because I’m starting to feel triggered, I’m starting to feel like this is not fair that, my wounds are getting opened up again.

Yeah. So I was working with a client, and it’s the, I’m talking to the husband and he was sharing it is like that, Caleb, it’s really interesting that sometimes I could say the right thing and like my wife accepts it and it’s okay and we’re, going well. other times I’m like saying when I think it was the right thing, and if she was a little bit less emotionally reactive, that it would be okay. And it feels like both scenarios are the exact same and just her responses are different. I said to him like, Hey, like I think, like I understand where you’re coming from and this problem solving mentality, and having a solution focused mentality is pretty common for, us guys. But I think it’s less about what you’re saying, and how much sense you’re making and more about like the, ability for that scenario to be able to accept, and process those things that you’re saying. And for guys, we, tend to like cars and stuff. And one thing that the image I used for him was, when you’re, trying to accelerate, if your car hasn’t reached the next gear yet, then it doesn’t matter how much you flood, how much gas you put into it, you’re just gonna be burning through your gas.

each engine or each relationship, and has its own. Tempo that it can accelerate and, accept to the next gear. and if you’re going try to go too hard, too fast, you’re actually going to hurt the engine or hurt the relationship more than you’re actually helping it. Wow. I might just use that too.

That is a very powerful image of no matter how much you floor the gas pedal, that the result might actually damage the engine. It might actually not allow you to get as far as you want to go. And that’s, something I think that a lot of people need to hear because it’s so easy for us to get into a problem solving mindset of, okay, here’s a problem.

And here is the way that I need to fix it. This is one of the only ways maybe, and we start tunnel visioning. And that is when we start putting the gas on the pedal and trying to move this forward to get to that solution. So we stop the cycles so we stop arguing so we stop that conflict. And at the same time, we need to understand that, this is not a car that we have to floor. We need to understand that this is a relationship and it is not easy to just floor it and expect it to go and to work out. And I think it’s, that sense of urgency, right?

Sometimes, when you’re driving, you’re in a rush. I, need to get going, so I want to accelerate as fast as I can. But the engine’s not built for it. And neither are we. We oftentimes, the slower we go, especially in emotionally charged conversations, the slower we go, the faster we get there, and the better it is for our relationships, just as it is, the better it is for the relation, for the engine itself.

Wow. Wow. The slower, the, more we slow this down, the more I can be ARE for you and you can be ARE for me. Then the faster that we can get to a resolution, the faster that we can get through this conflict to the other side. It seems so counterproductive to slow down. At the same time, you’re right, that’s part of what we do as psychotherapists. We slow the process down, we go deep. We find the details, we find the meaning behind it. We figure out what’s going on underneath all of that. When you said, oh, I’m tired, how is that interpreted by the partner? Maybe they say to themselves, oh, you say you’re tired, but really what’s going on underneath is that you don’t care about me, or that you wanna spend more time sleeping than being with me or on your phone or, with the kids, or whatnot. And here am I all alone? Wow. Okay. So the first step is just to acknowledge that you are in the cycle. Wow. Yeah, absolutely. Step two would really be externalizing it, externalizing it. What does it mean is taking it outside of you and your partner that, we, say in, in, EFT, emotionally focused therapy all the time and psychotherapy all the time, that, there are no villains generally in a, in, a fight, in a relationship. This is completely excluding abusive relationships, where it’s unsafe, right? there’s no time that physical abuse, or prolonged emotional and, mental abuse is, is okay, but most of the time it’s not that. Most of the time it’s not intentional. Most of the time. It’s hurting people, hurting other people. And so in the same way that if you were walking down the street and somebody steps on your foot, you might automatically like, ow and shove them back and push ’em away from you because they stepped on your foot. Oftentimes we’re doing the exact same thing, in our relationships. We get stepped on and so we create distance. we wanna retaliate, we wanna shove the other person back. and so when we say you have to externalize the cycle, it’s, not just you guys. It’s not because your husband or your wife is a bad person and they want to hurt you. Sometimes these things, and oftentimes these things happen accidentally, again, a cycle gets triggered and insecurity, rears his ugly head.

A dragon, from your, past because of your relationship with your parents and how you were brought up. takes over and you actually have to fight together if you actually want to. Win as a couple. And so again, externalizing it means that your enemy and the problem that you’re trying to fix is not your actually your partner, the person across from you, but it’s actually an external factor from both of you that you both have to face together in order to overcome.

Wow. Wow. That’s so hard to even understand what externalizing looks like, because when you look at your partner, they are the one, or you are the one yelling or screaming or complaining or nitpicking. It’s hard to even understand or have that frame of reference, oh, they are acting out of their hurt, or I am acting out of my hurt. All I can see is the dishes aren’t done, or the house is a mess, or things aren’t as I want them to be. And so there’s a part of me that really struggles with this because there’s, there’s this idea that if you really cared about me, you would actually do what I want you to do. And maybe I think that, oh, you’re lazy or you don’t care. How could I connect the dots that, oh, this is not my partner, but this is maybe an expectation that I had growing up from my parents. That, the house has to be immaculate, the dishes have to be clean. There must not be any mistakes in my childhood, how, could I do that, without blaming my childhood or blaming my past?

Yeah, and I think that’s where a lot of couples counseling, can go wrong, is when we focus on the specific behavior specific solutions. Rather than the underlying messages or underlying triggers that are affecting the couple because It’s really easy to say look, just do the dishes. What’s wrong with you? Or, hey, just be present. make sure that you, give your, spouse the, when, they reach out to you to not just reject them and to not always push them away. Behaviors are easier to work with and to identify because they’re needs, We often interpret them as needs and yet and when, to us, it sometimes seems really clear. Look, it’s a simple solution, just do it and you’ll be fine. But underneath all that, sometimes it is just a lack of awareness but oftentimes again, it’s this, those triggers, like with the dishes, you get triggered, maybe when the dishes aren’t done and when there’s a mess and your anxieties are rear, its ugly head. And then when you tell them, Hey, I’ve told you before. What are you doing? Don’t you love me? How could you keep doing this? I thought, yeah, I thought I was, I thought I was important to you. And they might have an experience where somebody else, is using the guilt against them. Somebody is, reacting outta proportion. And so they’re reacting out of that because they don’t know your anxieties, they don’t know your insecurities. They only see your external behavior. And so they start reacting based on that rather than what’s really bothering you.

Wow. So the, step two of externalizing the problem that, that it’s above and beyond just the behavior, what you’re trying to say is we have to look beyond that and look into the intention, what is truly going on behind the scenes.

In terms of also under what’s under understanding what’s behind the scenes, we call it understanding secondary and primary emotions. Oh, tell me more about that. Oftentimes what we’re experiencing or we’re expressing of anger, frustration, is a secondary emotion. It’s not the main thing that we’re feeling, but it’s how we know how to communicate. So understanding your cycle also includes understanding what are my reactions are they actually what I want to be communicating, because underneath that, especially, let’s go back to the dishes example. It’s, I’m communicating anger and a little bit disdain and like disbelief. Like, how can we have this fight every single day? And you still don’t understand what I’m asking of you, right? But underneath it is anxiety. It’s maybe a sense of abandonment, a sense of does he listen to what I say? Am I important? Are things that I find important enough for him to, be doing?

And and, vice versa, right? does she see my need? does she know that I feel rejected every time she just says I’m tired, or, I’m, I don’t want to, I don’t wanna talk to you right now. Or I’m just, yeah, I have a headache. Oh, yeah, that’s a classic. That’s a classic, right? Yeah. does she understand the message that I get when they, when she says that or when he says that? And so primary motions are what we need to slow down and cut through the secondary emotion so that we can actually communicate the thing that we want to communicate, which is, I’m hurt, I’m lonely, and I feel rejected, I’m feeling anxious. I’m feeling really vulnerable right now, actually. And this is how I’m trying to protect myself. And I don’t want to do that all the time. I want to be vulnerable. I want to be, available, but I don’t know how, and I need you to help me slow down so I can get there.

Wow. Wow. That is powerful. That is powerful. I wish we had a blueprint. To doing relationships. I wish to be honest that we were taught this in school so that we can get to the heart of it, get to the those primary emotions. And just understand that underneath all of this anger, frustration, there’s these feelings of vulnerability and loneliness and longing for connection. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s all about externalizing and understanding, okay, this is not just myself or my partner, but this is something that goes beyond us both, and that is this cycle. So what should we do next?

I think what we’ve already started touching on a little bit, right after you’ve externalized it. It’s not just me, it’s not just him. It’s not just us. We’re not just completely dysfunctional. It’s beyond us. It’s something that, is externally affecting us. Next step is really to, slow down enough to be able to understand your basic tendencies.

and so there’s this amazing acronym out there called BASIC, Behavior. Your Action Tendency, Somatic Tendency, Images that come along and Circumstances, right? And BASIC really helps you understand what those triggers are. And when you get triggered, what are the responses that come out of it. And so this is where you really start to understand what that cycle looks like and what are some of the, the. components have built toward, build up that cycle. Yeah. So let’s talk about the C the circumstance. How would you help me understand what I’m going through? So going through the same dishes example. I guess that would be the circumstance. I come home and I see the dishes aren’t being done. Yeah. Circumstance really is the environment or the, situation that these triggers happen most often. And so yeah, a messy house, dirty dishes is one example. It might be end of month, deadlines, pushing in, and just an overall sense of stress. It might be when the kids are sick, And so circumstances are the environmental factors that are contributing to your cycle. It might even be like back to school. Back to school, exactly. Yeah. to September. Oh yeah, for sure. And then the, I stands for image. What does that mean?

Yeah, so image is a little bit trickier. it’s what pops up for you when that happens. This might be better understood with a tone of voice. It’s like when you talk to me like that, I just see like my mom and like how she used to talk to me when she was like, when she wanted me to clean my room or to do my chores, and how she might talk down to me.

And that made me feel really small actually. or it might be like, wow, when you raised your voice and you use that tone of voice. It makes me think of my dad, and how unsafe it was growing up. And so we see some of these attachment styles and some of these traumas, that come from my past and how it actually overlays our present situation.

Wow. Wow. And we’ve been using a lot of images even in this episode. Like the demon dialogue, even that image of, there’s a little demon there. This little being, this entity that is forcing something on. And so even in the example of the dishes not being done, the image could potentially be. That the wife or, the partner or whoever is like a monster with fang barred and ready to destroy or chew up or kill something. That could be the image that comes up. And it could be, a positive image. oh, okay. I see an angel right now, or, everything is butterflies and rainbows, or it could take on a negative, image as well. Tell me about somatic. What does somatic tendency mean? Somatic tendency is how your body will react. And so like ones that we’re most familiar with is like my stomach, kind of clenches. My muscles all tense up. I start gritting my teeth. I might feel a little more aggressive and like I loom over, get close and loom over you. Or I might feel unsafe and I actually pull back physically. And so actually tendency of . A somatic tendency is how your body will react in a situation and again, how that communicates. How your brain communicates, or interprets that, that response for danger or anxiety or anger or aggression.

That makes so much sense cause when I. Think about my past when my parents got angry at me, my heart would start thudding in my chest, my ears would start getting red, maybe I might even start tearing up or feeling my nose getting stuffed up. That’s my body reacting to something that is going on and not only in, the negative aspect or when we’re in trouble or feeling pain, but it could also be, when we feel happiness too. Maybe we feel butterflies in our stomach when we see our crushes or we see the one that we love. Maybe our somatic tendency is to smile or to laugh or feel all giddy inside. Yeah. So interpreting somatic. Like reframing somatic tendencies, can be very helpful with individual work, right? Because something like, anxiety often has a lot of the same responses as excitement, right? The heartbeat goes faster, your palms get a little bit sweaty, right? and so one’s a negative response and one’s a positive response, and yet our bodies react the same way. And it really comes down to how does our brain interpret that at the end of the day? Within individual work, or even again within couples work, you can take the same body responses and you can reframe or reinterpret what that means, and build again, build and experience new cycles. Wow. That is, I’ve never thought of it like that before. Where, it is true when we feel like we’re in trouble, our heartbeats or we feel our bodily sensations.

And at the same time it’s very similar. I think about, an orgasm as well where, part of it, even the face looks like you’re in pain, but at the same time, you are experiencing pleasure and ecstasy and all the dopamine and oxytocin, right? So you are so right in this that our body has somewhat of a limited response to a whole bunch of different emotions that we experience.

And so the next one is action tendency. Yeah. So action tendency is like. What is my immediate response? what is, my tendency, and how do I want to react? And so action tendency can be what comes to mind. and like how am I going to, how do I build up for that reaction? And it really leads to the next one of behavior.

So once I have an action tendency, once I start, once that ball starts to roll, what is the end result? And so do I lash out? Do I pull back? Do I criticize? Do I start yelling? Do I bring back all these previous, instances where you know, I’ve been hurt or that has bothered me. What does that cycle and at the end of the day, you have the perfect storm. You have your cycle. Once you go through all these basic ideas. Wow. Wow. That is really powerful. And, even slowing that down and going through the C-I-S-A-B BASIC backwards, that is how we understand how we can be present in the moment, how we can hold space for ourselves and learn to do that for our partners as well. I love how you also talk about the thoughts and the emotions as well. What’s going on inside versus what’s going on outside. The similarities of how we experience the cycle and how we can change that over time. Yeah. Yeah. I think what is the most difficult part is starting to change that cycle. Starting to turn off the autopilot and go on. What is the opposite of autopilot? Manual control. Control. Manual, manual control. How do manual control, yeah. How to go back to manual. That’s right. That’s right. How do we get back to that? I think that’s the question. The million dollar question. How can we get back to manual control?

Yeah. So once you start to understand, and you still slow this process down and you’ve. Really at the end of, they bought into this whole idea that oh, there’s these things called Cycle and these autopilots, and now I understand what they’re all about and how it’s not just my partner, I’m also part of it. What do I do? How do I begin to fix the problem? How do I begin to have new cycles? I think at the end of the day, it really has to start with you. Oftentimes we would love it if we just, if I could just fix you, then we’ll be great. Everything will be good, right? And yet it’s almost impossible to change other people. It’s much easier to change yourself first, and to focus on yourself and. You’ll be surprised that oftentimes the other person will change as a result. And so how’s this the process? Start with you first rather than trying to fix your partner first.

Wow. Wow. That is really deep. And a question that, no wonder it’s so hard because it’s so unique to each and every one of us, how can we start recognizing our own cycles? How can we recognize our unique circumstance, the images that come up, the somatic sensations, the action tendencies, and the unique behaviors that come out of it?

And how do we start owning up to our part in this cycle, our part in this autopilot. Because in reality, when we stop going on autopilot and we can think and critically understand what is our role, then it makes us realize, oh, we don’t, have to do this anymore. We don’t have to go on autopilot anymore. We can actually take it off autopilot and just go manual.

Yeah. So to, to give you a quick example, so like a more personal example is, sometimes, myself and I think a lot of guys, can again get into that problem solving, rational, almost competitive aspect of our brains, and they can take over, right? No, what you’re saying isn’t making sense. and we get so stuck in our own lane and, for me it, it really boils down to I’m, trying to win this argument. I’m trying to point out to, my partner or to the person across from me. No, you are wrong for these reasons. and I think the best way I can describe it’s sometimes I go cold, and I lose sight of the person I’m talking to, especially when it’s somebody like, my partner or a family member. I don’t intend to hurt them. I don’t intend to become in, cold or, distant, or to neglect or discount their feelings or their needs at that moment. I just really want to win or really want to fix this problem so we can get beyond this, and that’s a, cycle. that is a pattern of behavior. That’s a dialogue that has taken over an autopilot that’s taken over. And I need to be able to recognize in those situations. Wait, I’m so focused on winning this argument that I’m no longer attuning to the person across from me. I’m no longer actually just trying to talk through what were like, come to a mutual understanding. I actually wanna dominate. I actually really wanna win in the situation, and that’s hurting the person across from me. I need to actually stop and acknowledging, Hey, I’m so really sorry. I’m trying, like I got so focused and caught up in what we’re arguing about that I lost sight of you and I said something I, I shouldn’t have, I don’t really want, can we slow down for a moment or can we, take a break and come back, to this in, in, in a little bit? I just need a moment and I just, I really want to hear and understand where you’re coming from. Wow. That changes the whole dialogue. Suddenly the, entire situation is very different.

That just hit me in my core. It really resonated, and I’m sure it resonates with a lot of the listeners here because it’s so hard to even say, even just half of what you said Caleb, and what you’re trying to do is just approach your partner, explain what is going on. I really wanted to win here and I just lost sight that I’m talking to a person that I really care about. Wow. And, so it, even as you’re talking, part of me is do I have the strength to even do all of that when I am so heated? When I wanna win this argument, when I wanna share with you, here are all the reasons that I’m right and you’re wrong. How can I even just slow it down? Yeah Janette, and that’s something that we all have to wrestle with, isn’t it? At the end of the day, we really have to take a step back and acknowledge. Hey, I’m not good at this. Hey, this really has a strong grip on my relationship and I don’t know how to, break free.

And that’s part of where, you and I come in, as psychotherapists. Our job is to help them slow down and to reframe and help the couples stop talking past each other and start talking to each other, but how do you do it by yourself? Is to one, be aware of it, be aware of the fact that, I’m going to hurt my relationship from time to time or all the time, and how do I dial it back? And even as much as I want to dial back, even as I have every good intention to do the right thing, I’m still gonna screw up. But every time we screw up, we can take a time, take a step back, refocus, reanalyze, understand that cycle, and what happened. As we go, through BASIC all over once again, and then be more mindful next time we, run into it. That’s right. And even as you’re talking, I think about this idea of bringing in some self-compassion. Yeah, there’s gonna be times where I’m gonna fail. I’m gonna fall on my face so hard, and at the same time I can recognize that this is hard. Changing the cycle is really hard. And I am hurting here, and it’s okay for me to fall down. But as long as I can understand that. It’s okay, I’m learning here. I can give myself that self-compassion. I can allow myself to make mistakes. And to let myself know, hey, I’m trying to be better. Even though I fall one time twice, three times, or a million times. I can still be here for myself and I can still work on externalizing the cycle, acknowledging it, slowing it down so that I can change the cycle. And the more I can do that and I can encourage myself to slow it down, the more I can change. And as I change, other people are gonna see what I’m trying to do and it’s gonna impact them as well.

Yeah. I think what comes to mind as you say that is something we tell our clients all the time, right? The purpose of therapy and the purpose of these conversations isn’t to make sure you never have a rupture. It’s not to make sure you never have another fight. It’s so that you know that when it happens, not if it happens, when it happens, you know how to repair. Wow. How do you pick yourself up again? How do you have that self-compassion again? How do you reach out to one another again and start walking toward forward together again?

Janette, I don’t know if you’ve mentioned it to your listeners, the books that we’d like to read all the time of Brandon Sanderson. This brings to mind, Dalinar’s experience of, what’s the most important step a man can take? And it’s not the first step and it’s not the last step. It’s the next step. That’s right. How do you own your experiences? How do you own your past and your mistakes, but to not let that bog you down and continue to take that next step towards healing, towards a healthier relationship, towards, better communication. And it starts, it’s hard when you start, but when you are able to own that, when you’re able to propel yourself forward, then you start making progress.

Wow. Mic drop.

Wow. That, is just an incredible thing. what is my next step? And owning what happened in the past. So hard to do that. Yes, absolutely. There’s a lot of pain in that because we have this idea that, we’re always trying to do the best that we can. And we can do better, as well. So what is the next step? How can we step forward knowing a little bit more about ourselves, knowing a little bit more about our partners?

Caleb, it’s been such an incredible talk with you, chat with you, how we can understand our cycles through ARE, being accessible, responsive, and engaged. What does this cycle look like? What does autopilot look like? These demon dialogues that try to keep us stuck and keep us fighting with our partners, with our spouses, with our family members, our friends, colleagues, coworkers. This really applies in a lot of different environments, in different interactions throughout our day. And we talked about how to make sense of our cycles, why we get stuck, the different steps that we can take. In order to slow down the cycle, acknowledge that the cycle is at work, how to externalize it, and to reframe it through the framework of BASIC. And so if there’s any last tips or tidbits that, Caleb, you like to share with the listeners, what would it be?

Yeah, I think as you understand your cycles, as you start to own your past and how you make mistakes, I think one of the, coolest things my mom has taught me over the years is that when we have a fight, cause of something she did, she’s like I can be wrong. I can be wrong. I can make mistakes, but can we also work on it. Can we move beyond the, thing that I did wrong? And again, like taking the next step, how do we not get stuck in our moments, and push beyond to building a brighter future together? How do we actually begin, to problem solve instead of attacking each other and blaming one another? And at the end of the day, unfortunately we end up so defensive. We look, we, try to protect ourselves so much that, we start shooting at our partner, we start attacking them, right? And that at the end of the cycle, that’s the, that’s where we end up sometimes when in our fights. We start attacking, we start going beyond the circumstance that was a trigger, and we start attacking their character, or we start, throwing, accusations. Around because we’re hurt, because we, we’re feeling vulnerable and we’re trying to protect ourselves. And so recognizing when we’ve done that, recognizing when we get trapped in that is how we begin and take that first step towards healing. Hey, I’m so sorry what I said there, or what, how that turned out is not how I wanted it to turn out. And really what happened was, I was feeling this and I needed you to respond like this, but that’s not how, that’s not what happened and we ended up, again, in that demon dialogue, in that auto, in that ugly cycle that’s been trapping us for so long. And so recognizing when bullets are flying and putting a stop to it is really, important. particularly for anxious partners. Who, wanna fight it out and let’s figure out right now. It can be hard to create that space that you need to de-escalate enough that you can actually have a healthy and, productive conversation.

And so another thing that I tell my clients is. Hey, if your spouse says I need, I can’t deal with this right now. I need some space, I’m gonna you need to stop. And that’s making you anxious and makes you like, want to reach out and pursue them all the more, something that you can tell them, or if you’re the one who, oftentimes needs the space and, needs to take a break from a fight is to give a timeframe. Hey, okay, we can take a break. How long do you think we can come back until we come back? Do you need an hour, two hours? just give me you. It doesn’t have to be specific and don’t really hold them to it, but it, I find that when you have something concrete and it’s not oh, they’re pushing me away, and they’re just like brushing it off, it’s no, they need time to cool off and they will come back to visit, revisit this conversation. They will, we will get over this together. And making sure you actually do keep each other accountable doing that, it really, helps the anxieties that are happening at the time. And now the spouse feels abandoned and now the spouse feels smothered in the midst of that, hopefully, at least.

Wow. Wow. I love how you bring in the attachment science, how anxious people, anxiously attach people, how they can handle their anxiety and ask, okay, if you want to have some space just to cool down, to even ask, how long can I expect you to need that space? And just to be okay and learn how to manage that anxiety.

Yeah. This is particularly important when kids are involved, right? You don’t want to be fighting and, creating that unsafe environment for them. It’s Hey, let’s put a pin on it for now, and when the kids are in bed, we’ll talk about it then. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. Thank you so much for all of these practical tips and practical ways that we can understand what is going on beneath the surface, and if you wanna show Caleb some love, you can find him on Psychology Today, that it’s Caleb, C-A-L-E-B-T-S-E. He’s the one and only on Psychology today, and if you’re in the province of Ontario, he is open to seeing any of you guys, and he’d love to connect and journey with you. All right. So without further ado, goodbye.

Bye. Thanks for having me. No problem.